PM Perspectives from India and the US: Vickram Saigal (Saas Labs, Adobe)
Everything from the PM role, to Career Growth, to Compensation
Hello and welcome to Edition #3 of The Product Roadmap. This week we speak to Vickram Saigal, who was Head of Product at SaaS Labs, and has spent a significant part of his life building technology products split across India and the US. We speak about his experience working across the two geographies, his insights on the kind of PMs in India, and what he thinks are the good and the bad parts.
Sections:
Differences in Product Management Philosophy: Copying the competition vs thinking first principles.
Cross-Functional Dynamics and Team Collaboration: Understanding the interplay between product, design, and engineering teams, and how it differs across geographies.
Documentation and Communication Practices: How does documentation help in alignment?
Career Progression and Talent Development: How should PMs think about their career growth?
Compensation and Equity Considerations: What does a standard compensation package look like?
Strategic Insights and Ownership Culture: Highlighting the strategic insights and ownership culture prevalent among Indian product managers and its impact on product quality and innovation.
Takeaways:
Indian companies focus a lot on the competition, which sometimes makes it hard for PMs to make the voice of the customer heard, and build from first principles.
There is a top down approach to building products in India, and the product team generally has the loudest voice in the room. This is not ideal, and its the PMs responsibility to get team members to contribute.
PM roles are fuzzy by definition. It’s important that PMs should define their role and discuss with their managers what they are expected to do (inputs) and achieve (outputs).
PM talent in India is great - people are smart and hungry and go above and beyond. They only need the right guidance to level up their craft.
Vibhav: Vickram, thanks for speaking with us. We’re looking forward to a great conversation about your experience building products. Let’s start with some background about you and your work? You’ve had a very interesting journey from university through social impact and to product via B school.
Vickram: Thanks for having me.
So, a little bit about me. Until last Friday, I was with a company called SaaS Labs. I've been with them for two years. I just finished there, and I'm starting my sabbatical now, sort of taking my time to figure out the next few things I might want to do.
Mithun: This sabbatical thing seems to be taking off!
Vickram: I know right! So I've been at SaaS Labs for two years, where I led the product management and design teams. It's a team of 20+ people, and the company that’s grown from 2x+ over the last couple of years. We've also doubled the team across India and the rest of the world.
SaaS Labs specializes in creating B2B software tailored for small and medium-sized businesses (SMBs), with a primary focus on enhancing customer interactions across various channels such as voice, SMS, and WhatsApp. At its core, the company aims to provide a comprehensive communication platform for sales and support teams within SMBs. For instance, this might include functionalities like managing inbound and outbound calls, integrating with CRM systems, and facilitating follow-up SMS messages, all through digital channels. The majority of SaaS Labs' customer base is in the US, with additional presence in ANZ and EMEA regions. Catering predominantly to small businesses, our customers typically range from entities with just a few seats to larger accounts with up to ten seats. The market includes major players like Genesis and NICE CX for enterprise solutions, SaaS Labs faces direct competition from platforms like Aircall and Cloud Talk in its specific niche.
I’m originally from Delhi, I completed my undergrad at the University of Delhi before starting my career in management consulting with Bain. I spent three years there, it was like finishing school, teaching me essential skills lacking in the Indian education system. Transitioning to social impact, I joined the Gates Foundation in Ethiopia, focusing on attracting global investment. After capacity building within the government of Ethiopia, I returned to India, working with an impact fund. I then moved on to an MBA at Booth (University of Chicago), which is where I met Vibhav. There I explored internships in the social impact sector, VC, and Fintech, and realised the growing importance of technology. Post-MBA, I spent four and a half years at Adobe in Silicon Valley, before transitioning back to India with SaaS Labs.
Focusing on the Competition vs Thinking First Principles
Mithun: Ok awesome. So one of the big themes that we wanted to explore with you is the differences in building product in India vs the US, given you’ve spent years building products in both the US and India, what kind of things that you've seen are very different in the two geographies? Founders and senior management often tell us that product management in India is in its very early stages. Many don’t know what it is, very few people actually understand what building a product entails. A lot of people are just in it because, hey, it's a high-visibility job and seems to be ‘hot’. What do you think?
Vickram: Um, I think the headline is that they are right. My view is also that product as a space is fairly nascent in India, and product managers are trying to take on global best practices, and a lot of that then definitely comes from a theoretical point of view. And what that means is that you look at frameworks, you read books, you do all of that. You're like, 'Okay, fine, this is a really good model that I've learned from Marty Cagan, and I want to come and apply this, but I really don't have the tools and the ways to do it, so I'm not contextualizing it.' And that's where there is a disconnect.
There are two types of product managers that I encounter in the marketplace, both of whom usually know the standard frameworks and theory. The key differentiator between the two is their ability to use first principles and customer first thinking to execute on features vs. using competition to decide what to build. Often, it may be the environment i.e the startup they work for, that is forcing them to copy customers.
What I have felt with many product managers in India is that their roadmap is fairly driven by the competition. The goal is really focused on execution and saying how do I make X feature as quickly as I can instead of taking time and thinking about what the customer needs.
Vibhav: So what you’re saying is this focus on execution is detrimental in the long run. What do you think good PMs should try to do in such cases?
Vickram: Sometimes, even if the PM tries to use first principles, that may get disrupted really quickly at start-ups run by inexperienced product leaders. The roadmap is going to be filled with what competition is launching. So, the ability to hold on to saying, 'Hey listen, the product function represents the voice of the customer within the company,' is really hard but very important. You must say 'Here, this is my user, and I am committed to solving for their needs.' My advice to the product folks is if your environment doesn’t allow you to do this, you should move to another company without wasting any time. The best product managers I have seen in India listen to the customer, build what they need and think first principles. These are the same product folks I’d expect to be extremely successful over the next decade.
Mithun: Is it fair to then say that some companies don't have leaders who can think long-term and stick to that vision because that's one the other way to read it, right? You're saying that, 'Hey, the only way I can win is to respond to what the competitor is doing,' but that's not necessarily the right way to go about it?
Vickram: You raise a good point. It's not just about winning; it's about the game plan, too. Especially in India, there's this pressure to perform, fuelled by this idea that we have everything it takes to succeed. But reality check: we don't. Take something as simple as language nuances in design or engineering. We might be building something here, but it's for a context we've never experienced ourselves. So, let's not overestimate our capabilities. It's not just short-term thinking; it's about recognising our limitations and not blindly following others just because we think we can do it too. It's a challenge we've felt keenly, given the competitive nature of our space, but it's crucial to keep grounded and focused on what truly matters—serving our users.
Working with Engineering Teams
Vibhav: Are there any differences in the cross-functional interactions in the two geographies?
Vickram: The first thing we discussed was the top-down approach to building products, where external factors tend to have more influence than internal ones, right? The foundation of what problem one is trying to solve and being the voice of the customer isn't as robust as it is in a more mature product market. We've had this convo before, you and I, about how in India, the product guy is kind of like the traditional model, right? In the US, it's more like a tripod, with product, design, and engineering all on the same level, solving different parts of the same problem.
But in India, it's more of a pyramid, where the product manager is relatively more important. They're the ones owning the OKRs and business goals, and it's more one-way communication to the other functions. The majority of the product and design team usually falls in line with that. Product sets the requirements, defines the goals, and thus, they alone own the outcomes and the roadmap. The engineering team's ownership is more on execution, like saying, 'I've done my job, my job is complete.' It's a bit different in the US, as I mentioned earlier. The partnership between product, design and engineering is much stronger there.
In India, strength of voice matters a lot, which is different from the US. There's this feeling that unless you're the loudest voice in the room, your voice is not going to be heard. So, there's this constant tug-of-war for who's driving the ship. Product is generally seen as the most important, but if engineering becomes the loudest voice, everyone starts believing it's the product manager’s fault, and vice versa. Perception management really dictates the power equation here, and this results in sub-optimal collaboration and product performance. This is changing and changing fast. I suspect we will move very quickly on to the trifecta model of execution; those who succeed will realise this earlier than others. Give your engineers and designers the voice they deserve.
Documents help PMs collaborate better with their team
Vibhav: How important is documentation and reviews for PMs?
Vickram: Documentation is kind of sacred in our company and should be in any product company. It doesn't always need to be a verbose document, rather needs to be thoughtful and thorough. It's more about documenting the right requirements and ensuring commitment from stakeholders. So, there's this standard of communication, where one can lay out the broad architecture, even if it's just a squiggle on paper, so that others can point out anything that’s missed. PMs here think the PRD is a one way complete document that they have to write and give to the engineering team, but actually it can be very minimal, and used to only set the direction that the team has to move in. Then together, the team owns the outcome, and from that point, they're in agreement to move forward.
It's also interesting how the confidence of a product manager (who is likely an MBA grad with good communication) might inadvertently intimidate others. They often assume that their expertise is understood, but it's important that they need to be more inclusive in the approach, seeking input and brainstorming together. As I mentioned earlier, the documents should be user-centric. It is not about the quantity i.e lengthy PRDs that overwhelm team members but about quality.
The other aspect I see in India, is a loop where teams get stuck in endless meetings and unclear resolutions. We need tighter communication loops to ensure everyone understands the outcomes and moves forward efficiently. Building relationships is important, but that should be through one-on-ones. Review meetings shouldn't be distractions but rather as opportunities for meaningful collaboration. Don’t meet for the sake of meeting, without a clear agenda.
People Management is not the default way to grow as a PM
Mithun: What do you think about career progression for product managers in the US versus India?
Vickram: In India, there's this expectation that every year brings a promotion, right? Like, by your third year as a PM, you're supposed to manage a team of 3 APMs, and by the fifth year, it's 20. But honestly, that's not how you truly grow as a product manager, is it? There's this pressure that as you climb the ladder, your team has to expand, and that's the only way to reach the VP of product or CPO position. It's more about time-based promotions than skill-based ones. The whole understanding of a PM's role seems a bit blurry. We're all still figuring it out, and the ecosystem doesn't quite get it yet but it is changing quickly.
For me, being a PM is about defining the destination and figuring out how to get there. But sometimes, there's this ‘boundarylessness’ to the role where everything falls on you, and that's not fair. Some PMs end up doing tasks outside their scope just because no one else is doing it. But then when it comes to promotion, the criteria are unclear, and it's frustrating for everyone involved.
Again, in my head, the reason also that this happens is a lot of companies, I know it's called fad or fashion or whatever, they think that all the smartest people need to be in the product function. Let's say that's true, right? And they go and hire smart people, and smart people generally have a very high sense of ownership and hustle, right? And then if you don't tell them what they're supposed to own, they'll go down these rabbit holes just to make things happen, and they'll very quickly like 3 months later they'll be like oh what have I done I spent 3 months looking at the same Excel sheet again and again and I've not moved anywhere else, right? So, I think it's also incumbent on companies and organisations and people managers to sort of create that. All product managers must sit with leadership and clearly capture expectations and promotion timelines. Own your career progression and don’t expect things to happen automatically.
Vibhav: Have you seen any differences in the talent pool and in hiring?
Vickram: At the end of the day, I've been really impressed by the talent in India. These folks are smart and hungry, and I've felt pushed to figure out how to add value to them. They go beyond just the typical PM role, understanding marketing intricacies like demand gen, product marketing, and content marketing. The level of ownership, hustle, and drive is high, which makes working with them really exciting. For instance, in our OKR planning, my team has shown immense dedication. Despite lacking strong data tools last year, we set up everything needed this year, diving into books, podcasts, and industry benchmarks to define KPIs. Their eagerness to learn and grow means the quality of product management is improving daily. They're not complacent; they're always seeking ways to enhance their skills and impact. They go beyond the typical PM role, understanding various aspects of marketing like demand gen, product marketing, and content marketing. Their high level of ownership and hustle is exciting to work with, pushing us all to constantly improve.
Moreover, there's a strong sense of strategic insight among Indian PMs. They take ownership of the strategic narrative, contributing significantly to shaping the direction of our products and businesses. This blend of ownership, strategic thinking, and a thirst for learning should translate into tangible improvements in product management quality over time.
However, there are challenges, particularly in maintaining a healthy work-life balance. The work hours can be long, with some individuals putting in crazy hours. Setting boundaries and managing expectations becomes crucial, especially for new employees navigating a different culture. Despite the challenges, there's a dedication to growth and improvement that drives the Indian PM community forward.
Compensation Benchmarks for PMs
Vibhav: Can you talk through how compensation works in Indian start-ups?
Vickram: So the compensation structure is very evolved in the US. It is very efficient in terms of how human capital is valued. If a company under pays or over pays risk adjusted, talent movement follows pretty quickly. India is getting there but it is really up to the individual product managers to push their hiring managers to ensure they are compensated fairly. I’ll specifically dive into 5-6 areas which are important to consider for younger product folks. There’s a lot outside of salary that forms your total compensation package. Your "total comp" includes at least the following below:
Base salary — the money you’re paid every pay period.
Equity — ownership stake in the company, could easily be half your total comp or more.
Benefits — in the US, health insurance alone can easily cost your employer $500-1000/month. Benefit packages also include things like vacation days, free food and other perks. This is (mostly) not taxed, so you’d rather have these benefits than the equivalent in cash.
Annual bonus — percentage bonus on top of your salary based on performance, common only with public companies. The recruiter will likely quote you a "target bonus" (e.g. 15%), which is what you can expect if you meet expectations. Generally also comes with additional equity (a "refresher").
Signing bonus — one-time bonus paid out either when you sign or the day you start. Might come with a clause that you must pay it back if you leave after X months. Highly negotiable.
Other perks — a whole suite of one-time or ongoing cash perks, like relocation package, phone stipend, commuter benefits, car allowance, etc.
Vibhav: How does equity work for these start-ups? How should PMs think evaluate it?
Vickram: Equity is an ownership stake in the company. Your stake in the company converts to money only if one of two things happens: your shares are purchased (ESOP buy-back or acquisition) or it becomes listed on the stock market (an IPO).
An equity grant is generally for a 4 year period — you’ll get X number of shares over 4 years and you'll progressively earn (or vest) over that period. Vesting will generally be subject to a 1-year “cliff”: you don’t earn anything in the first year, and on your first anniversary, you vest ¼ of the shares. This formula (“4 year vest, 1 year cliff”) is nearly universal in tech. The company will never give you stock directly, because you'd have to pay taxes on it right away. Instead, companies have designed roundabout mechanisms to delay taxation. The two most common are RSUs and stock options. Listed companies usually give out RSUs. When a company offers you equity, they’ll quote you a value: X,000 shares over 4 years, “which is worth $X00,000.” (if they don't, ask). That value is based on what investors have paid for the company in the last financing round. If the latest investors paid $1M for 1% of the company, the company's valuation is $100M and therefore a 0.1% stake is "worth" $100,000. Depending on the stage of the company, that number is anything from “as good as cash” to pie-in-the-sky voodoo.
The important thing for product managers is to be informed of how stock options work and the entire compensation package to make thoughtful decisions.
Mithun: That was really comprehensive, thanks for your time Vickram! Wishing you all the best for your next thing!
Vickram: Pleasure to be here :)
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